WEBINAR: Maintaining Employment Through Economic Advancement Strategies

WEBINAR: Maintaining Employment Through Economic Advancement Strategies


>>Good afternoon everyone. Thank you for joining us for
today’s LEAD Center webinar, part of our Promoting Economic Advancement
webinar series, Maintaining Employment Through Economic Advancement Strategies. I will be your facilitator today. My name is Elizabeth Jennings. And I’m the assistant project
director for the LEAD Center. I’m also thrilled to have
joining us today, Abby Cooper. She’s a subject matter expert
with the LEAD Center focusing on customized employment
and economic advancement. For those of you who are new to our
webinars, the National Center on Leadership for the Employment and Economic
Advancement of People with Disabilities, also called the LEAD Center, is a
collaborative of disability, workforce, and economic empowerment organizations led
by National Disability Institute with funding from the US Department of Labor’s
Office of Disability Employment Policy. It looks like our partners from
the Department of Labor Office of Disability Employment Policy
have not yet been able to join us. So we’ll hope to hear from
them later in today’s webinar. I’d now like to invite my colleague, Nakia Matthews to provide us
with some housekeeping tips.>>Good afternoon everyone. The audio for today’s webinar is
being broadcast through your computer. Please make sure your speakers are turned
on or your headphones are plugged in. You can control the audio broadcast via the
audio broadcast panel which you see below. And if you accidentally closed this panel or
if the sound stops, you can reopen it by going to the top menu item, Communicate
and Join Audio Broadcast. If you do not have sound capabilities on your
computer or you prefer to listen by phone, you can dial the toll or toll-free number
that you see here and enter the meeting code. And when you do this, you do not
need to enter an attendee ID. And I will also paste this number
and code into the chat box. Real-time captioning is provided
during this webinar. The captions can be found
in the media viewer panel, which appears in the lower right hand
portion of your webinar platform. If you’d like to make the media viewer panel
larger, you can do so by minimizing some of the other panels like Chat
or Q& A and Participants. And conversely, if you do not need the captions,
you can go ahead and minimize the media viewer. There will be a question and answer
portion at the end of the webinar. You can use the Q&A box or the
chat box to send any questions that you may have to us at– I’m sorry. And you may contact Elizabeth
Jennings if you’re listening by phone only at [email protected] Please note that this webinar is being
recorded and the materials will be placed on the LEAD Center website at
the URL that you see below. If you experience any technical difficulties
during the webinar, you can use the chat box to send me, Nakia Matthews, a message or you may
also email me directly at [email protected]>>Thank you, Nakia. The LEAD Center mission is to advance
sustainable individual and systems level change that results in improved,
competitive integrated employment and economic self-sufficiency outcomes for
individuals across the spectrum of disability. [ Pause ] Today’s agenda is going to include the
impact of financial stress on productivity. Our current approach to employment
services, as well as shifting the focus to include financial issues, needs, and
opportunities in employment planning, how and when to address financial
needs and goals, and next steps for working professionals–
I’m sorry, for workforce professionals and for organizational leadership. Again, if you have any questions, we’re going
to have time for that at the end of the webinar. But we also encourage you to submit questions
throughout into the chat box into the Q&A area, or if you’re offline, to please email me,
Elizabeth Jennings, at [email protected] As a result of today’s webinar, we believe
that you will have a better understanding of the impact of financial stress on employment,
the importance of including financial capability as part of the employment plan, the basics
of how and when to talk to customers about their finances, steps you can
take in the short and long-term, and resources to support you along the way. Without further ado, I’d like to invite Abby
Cooper to present, and we’re just so thrilled to have Abby today and I’m grateful to all
of you for joining us to hear from her. Welcome, Abby. And Abby, it just looks like you’re on mute.>>Thank you. I was just asking if I was on mute.>>We have you now. [inaudible] so much, Abby.>>That’s OK. Thank you everyone. I’m thrilled that everyone has joined and I had this first slide here
on why is this part of my job? Because I think some of you on the line
know very well why it’s part of your job. And others of you on the line feel like,
whoa, I already have so much to do. And now here’s another piece
that I need to think about. And I hope by the end of this webinar, you will
realize there’s some things that you can do that will help you think about this
issue and will not be too taxing. And I just want to start with
a very quick story in terms of why this issue had become
so near and dear to my heart. This was many years ago. I placed a gentleman in the Bremerton shipyard
and I placed him out of a sheltered workshop where he was earning about 50 cents an hour to
a job where he was earning 10 dollars an hour. And for quite a while, about
a year, life was swell. His job was going well. He had money. He was doing well. And then one day he just quit his job. And he came into my office
and he said, “I quit my job.” And I kind of said, “Well, why?” And he said, “Well, I get
money anyways, don’t I? I always got my Social Security, so
why wouldn’t I always get my paycheck?” He has no idea that there was a correlation
between your paycheck and working. And that made me realize that I had made a
lot of assumptions that people know things that sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t,
but how important it is to have conversations. And I can turn these myself, right? Yeah. OK, so first, let’s talk about the
impact of personal finances on employment. And this is nothing new because
everyone on the line knows this. When you have a financial problem, it
affects you on a very individual level. And it affects your work productivity, and
it affects your personal relationships. And why is that? Because in our current society right
now, you’re viewed a little bit as not up to stuff if you have financial problems. And people internalize that because
we all know that money is emotional. So if you have financial problems,
you start thinking that some of it is because there’s something wrong with me. And so you tend to worry more about it. You know, a recent study by the Personal
Financial Employees Education Foundation showed that one in four employees are
in serious financial stress. And we all know that some of
this has to do with the economy. We all know that some of this has to do with
the fact that people’s wages haven’t risen, but their credit has and so people have
gotten themselves into financial trouble. So one thing to think about
this as we go through it– I’m going to talk a lot about this is that how to make sure you separate a person
from their financial issues. And on the average, this like blew
me away when I saw the statistic. But on an average, up to 80 percent of
these individuals spend time at work dealing with their personal financial problems. And in terms of wasted productivity,
that’s between 12 to 20 hours per month. And the reason to bring these statistics and the
next set of statistics that I’m going to bring in is because this is everybody’s issue. This isn’t just the person who’s struggling
to figure out how to put everything together. It’s the employer’s issue and you will
see there’s been an increase of employers that provide financial education and
brown bags around financial literacy in the workplace directly related to that issue. And I apologize it just switched
the slide, I’m on slide 15. You know, and then in 2010, the
Federal Reserve study stated that employees’ financial stress
costs an employer an average– employers, excuse me, an average of 5000
dollars per employee per year in productivity. That’s a huge chunk of change. When we go back to– one in four people are
dealing with some kind of financial stress. And then let’s, you know, extrapolate a little
bit, think about the folks that you care about and you represent and you’re trying to
secure employment for, just in your head, think about how many of those people
are dealing with financial stress, OK. And those with earnings under 30,000 dollars,
which is kind of a lot of folks that we place, scored high on the fiscal related stress index. It was 64 points, which means not only is
stress high, but if you look at other studies, it also shows there’s a strong correlation
between that stress and depression. So it’s an issue that we need to think about. And we know that financial stress impacts
job productivity in a ton of ways. We know that there’s increased
unplanned absences. We also know that people feel out of control. Just think about yourself. If you’ve ever had a situation where you weren’t
quite sure how you’re going to pay a bill and you had one of those fun-filled collection
agencies call you, you feel out of control. And when you feel out of
control, it’s hard to focus. So employees are easily distracted. And it’s kind of like that
one ad about get digital TV when you’re easily distracted,
you’re prone to accidents. But it’s true. When you’re easily distracted,
you’re not paying attention. And then if we take it to a
lot of folks are working jobs, that it’s incredibly important they pay
attention, because they may be around machinery and it may be a situation where it’s easier
for them to seriously hurt themselves. And we already talked about this, but stress
creates a high risk of health-related problems. So then we– so, OK. So, we have unplanned absences. We have people not being productive. We have them prone to accidents. And then we put them on a high risk of turnover,
either they lose the job or they quit the job. And then where are they? Lots of times, they’re right
back in your office. And we have all worked with people who
have had multiple jobs within one year. And part of the reasons they’ve had multiple
jobs is the underlying issue sometimes have not been addressed. So you go from one stopgap to another stopgap. And it never resolves the issues. And so people lose jobs due to low productivity. So now, here’s really good at stating the
obvious, but the benefits of financial capacity which I don’t have to tell you, you all
know is going to decrease financial stress. It’s going to help somebody feel in control. And when you feel in control, you’re
able to see that you have a future. When you feel out of control, survival is
the only thing you usually you can see. There’s going to be less financial crisis. But if all worked with people
who are so on the edge when their car breaks down,
that’s it, they quit their job. I have no way to get there. We’ve worked with people who are on
the edge of losing their housing. We’ve worked with a lot of people that
have no emergency savings whatsoever, and life is always a scramble. So the greater motivation to push through
the challenges at a new job presents– ’cause we all know a new job is stressful. When you’re in a little bit more
financially secure situation, you know, with better budgeting, it helps people
face the drop in Social Security or other public benefits, or it helps people
think about how to use public benefits and Social Security as a
way to augment their income. So maybe I’m somebody who really in order to
meet all my expenses, I need to make more money than actually at this point I truly can. So then, what’s the conversation about
how do we use your Social Security or how do we use your other public benefits to
kind of augment the amount of money you have, so that you get through, you’re OK? And, you know, I think about
these conversations. And I think about this old blues song that used
to– that says, you know, “Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.” And I think about that on money. We all want the people we
represent to be financially stable, to have financial capacities, but
none of us want to talk about money. So we need to kind of think about how
we switch that equation a little bit. And research demonstrates
that employees who are able to manage their finances are more productive. Well, that’s the given. If you think about your own
life, you know that’s true. And one company found that profits increased
by 450 dollars annually for each employee that improved his or her financial behaviors. So let’s just think about that for a second. You know, because most of the time in this
webinar I’m going to talk about how you can help and how we can think about supporting
the job seekers, the people we represent. But we can also help companies. We can also help employers
think about this fact, and think about what they can
provide to their employees. Because in the end, they’re going to be
financially better off by doing that. So it’s just kind of helping us thinking
of the whole equation from 360 degrees because in reality, it’s everybody’s issue. So how do we get there? How do we help those we serve first of all? Move forward from high financial stress,
financial crisis, or limited financial security to being financially and physically
capable without magic, OK. One way that we do it is we
start talking about money. And talking about money is complicated. And it can make us uncomfortable
because it is emotional. And for most of us, we grew up with a
whole ton of judgments around money. I’m sure some of you like me heard from
your mother, “Money doesn’t grow on trees. Why are you buying that?” But think of all the different money
messages you got all through your life. And most of them tend to be somewhat simplistic. And they tend to lead you to being judgmental. So I just want to show this if I
can play this quick video, that one, because I think it’s humorous and
two, because it makes my point. Elizabeth, can you help me? For some reason, it’s not working. [ Pause ] OK. Well, I can’t get it to work. So I would suggest you guys
watch it when you can. It’s another assumption that we hold around
money and it’s that work will be the answer, that if a person gets a job, then they’ll be OK. And we’ve kind of forgotten in today’s
society how complex everything has become. And if you look at the huge movement
that’s going on now about minimum wage and about people demanding higher wages
’cause they can’t live on minimum wage, that we know that the assumption that
just getting a job will take care of everything just truly is not true. You know, and there is some thinking
that we’ve gone through in our head that, you know, everyone starts somewhere. And I know that other people
on the line have said that to customers they represented as I have. And that’s fine. Everybody does start somewhere, but
everybody also needs some help figuring out to get to the next [inaudible]. Another thing that we tend to think is well,
you know, the job market is tight right now so take what you can get and
then you can move forward. Or people can augment wages with public
benefits, which is true, people can. But then we want to think about
how long do we want to set up that and how do we want to help people move forward? And a person– you know, shoot. The person– and I– a lot– most of the work I
do is with folks with a significant disability and most of the people I work with
have limited understanding of money. That does not mean they don’t
know what they want. That does not mean because you have
limited understanding of money, that you shouldn’t have a financial life. We’ve also tended to forget
that wages do matter. We get so focused on a job that
we think that that’s the end all. Life– you’ll live happily ever
after if you have that job. But in reality, wages do matter. There isn’t a person on this line
when they accepted their job, they didn’t think about, can
I afford to take this job? Will this job cover my rent? Will it cover my car payment? Does it have health insurance? Can I save any money? These are just basic things that you
thought about when you accepted your job. And depending on where you are in your
career, and how many people depend on your income, the questions became broader. And if you decided you wanted a job that didn’t
pay as much, then you also had to think about, OK, well, what am I willing to cut out for? You know, what am I willing to change in
my income so I can afford to take this job? It’s kind of like we need to help job
seekers think about the same things, think about how much they need to earn to
cover their expenses now and in the future. That doesn’t mean hopefully
that we’re there in the future. It more means that we help them think
about it so that they have a plan. And if we go back to the fact that the– and
the reality, one thing I love about talking about money and helping people think
through it is it gives them power. It gives them control. And so it doesn’t mean I’m going to be
there in your future when you get that job that allows you to live the lifestyle you want. But it does mean I can help you go on a pathway. I can put you on a pathway
to financial stability. And you have a plan for the future. So I’m on slide 22 too. I’m sorry, I keep forgetting
to say what slide I’m on. So from my perspective, our
current system looks like this. Probably with a few more loop-dee-loops in it. But there’s limited conversations on financial
stability and there isn’t a person on this line that doesn’t know that financial
stability is personal. It all depends on where you are in your life. You know, there are some people on
this phone that want to buy a new car. So, they are figuring that out and
that factors in to financial stability. There’s other people that are figuring out how the heck am I going
to put my kids through school? And so that factors in. There may be some people on this line that are thinking how the heck am
I going to afford a new wheelchair? And that all factors into what you
personally view as financial stability. And we don’t ask people that. We tend not to have those conversations. We tend to focus a lot more
on the job development. What kind of job do you want? Let’s see what’s available and let’s
see how we can get you that job. So obtaining the job is what’s essential. That becomes the driver. So, if we’re lucky, employment is secured. And if we’re lucky and the person’s
lucky, sometimes it’s a living wage. Sometimes it’s a great job. But if the person has more complexities
and less contributions for an employer, it frequently isn’t and the case is closed. For a lot of folks, they’re still
poor or they’re working poor. And the job doesn’t cover their expenses. So what happens? Lots of times individuals return for another
job or they’re laid off or they’re fired because we kind of focus too
linearly on just the job. So when do we talk about money? When do we help people understand what are
the elements they should be thinking about. And I think that we try to think about
how we integrate it into everything we do. And we do tend to be uncomfortable
about talking about money. We’re afraid we’re being intrusive,
we’re afraid that somebody is going to think we’re a financial advisor. We think well, you know, we’re not that hot
with our own money so what right do we have to talk to anybody else about money? And it’s just that we just have to start the
conversations to help people start thinking about it for themselves and letting
them know where the resources are, and what strengths they already
have that they can build on. You know, our approach with around
money pretty much has been a little like teaching somebody how to diet
before you teach them how to cook. I mean, we’re all really good
at saying, you should budget and not have the conversation about,
well, what do you need from employment? What do you need for money? What– Where do you want
to be a year out from now? So traditionally, we find when it comes
to money, it’s easy to be judgmental. We’re pretty much pretty comfortable about
talking about money– about budgeting. But we’re not comfortable and we don’t tend to
talk about how a budget can make life easier. If you just came to me and
talked about, “OK, Abby, I want to sit down and do
some budgeting with you.” I would kind of think, I want
to go stick a needle in my eye. But if you were to sit down with me and you were
counseling me about a job and you said, tell me, Abby, what do you want to buy with your wages? Tell me what you want your
life to look like financially. And let’s think about how we
can do that within a budget. I’m a lot more interested. You know, we tend to be reticent about what
information and services the clients need. And one of the reasons is we just
don’t ask people, “How can I help you? What do I need?” And for anyone who’s ever been in a
financial crisis, if somebody asks you in a nonjudgmental way, “How can I help you?” You’re like, “Thank God. Somebody is listening to me. Somebody is going to help
m, because I am so confused. I don’t know where to turn.” And just that very question of how can
I help you, what do you want to work on? And here are some resources,
can be very empowering to folks. The other thing we tend to do with money and
I think it’s ’cause we feel uncomfortable, we tend to neglect to make sure
people understand what we’re saying. And if I say it really quickly, then the
conversation is over, as opposed to slowing down and saying, what did– what did she here? You know, what did I say that
didn’t make sense to you? And a lot of this, a lot of our
uncomfortableness comes from not feeling secure in our own financial situation or not
wanting– you know, not wanting to cause harm, not wanting to give wrong
information, and so it prevents us from having– starting the conversations. And I want to reiterate here. It’s not that anybody on the line
has to be a financial advisor. It’s just if you have to open the door to
have the conversations and connect people to the resources that can help them. You know, it struck me all of a sudden as
incredibly weird ’cause I’m a little slow. So I think it just struck me about 10
years ago that how in the world could I, for the last 25 years, be
involved in employment? It never had a lot of discussions about money. They should go, you know, handing glove. But it was– but they didn’t
until I started thinking about it. So here’s what we want, all
right, Liz, here’s what I want. And that we have conversations
about wages, hours worked, how many hours do you want to work? And what does working– what
that does wage mean to your life? I mean, what are the pros and cons? What are you willing to give up in order
to achieve those wages and those hours? What impact does it have on your benefits? Oh you don’t know? Well, let’s figure out who you can talk
to, who can help you think that through. What about taxes? Well, I’ve never ever paid taxes. Well, let’s have a little bit of a conversation
on what comes out of your check for taxes and how taxes work, and how
you can use taxes as a tool. What are the financial resources
in your community? We also want to have conversations
in terms of credit scores, and in terms of have you ever
checked your credit report? Why in the world would I care about my
credit score if I’m just looking for a job? ‘Cause a lot of employers in
my state is allegedly illegal to check somebody’s credit score unless it’s
directly related to the job they’re applying, but employers do it all the time. So, all right, I’m somebody who
hasn’t been employed for two years and then I have a stinky credit score. My chances of getting that job
just plummeted a little bit. So it’s important that people understand that. And it’s important that we
think about when we do plans, how do we tie it to people’s financial goals? What are their financial goals in
relation to their employment goals? And that doesn’t mean they’re going to achieve
them right away, but it means, you know, what are the steps we want to put in place? What are the referral to community support? And ’cause this is my little diagram, life
is perfect in this, so we’re going to have– the person has an employment goal
that will result in a living wage. And I want to talk for a
second on a living wage. A living wage once again is individual. A living wage is contingent on
what that person’s expenses are. So if that person thinks about that you’re
doing a plan with and you’re thinking about what they think about what they need to
cover their wages– to cover their expenses, what that wage is becomes what the living wage. And maybe enough to cover their expenses
and go out to dinner once a month. You know, in Ireland, the way they
define poverty is very interesting. They define it in terms of, is the person able
to participate in regular community activities? Are they able to have people
over to dinner once a month? Are they able to go out and participate
in an activity in the community? Do they have enough pairs of shoes? They get very clear in terms of
what a person needs to be integrated in the community and have enough money. So we have a plan. And the plan obtains a job that reflects both
the person’s contributions, their skills, their strengths, their experience,
and their financial needs. And as I already said earlier,
financial needs change. So they reflect their financial needs
at that particular point in their life. And in my head, they’re on a pathway to
financial stability ’cause we’ve had some of those conversations with them or we’ve
referred them to community resources. And so we hopefully don’t see them again. And then they have a closed case
and they live happily ever after. So I want to talk a second
about tension systems. And I’m on slide 26. And the reason I put this girl in is
one, because I just love her running away from the bear, but it’s also how many
people feel about their finances. They think they’ve got one thing, they
think they’ve got it under control. And all of a sudden something new happens
and they’re just running for survival. But what Kurt Lewin’s tension systems
theory is, is that environments, all environments are complex and layered. And there are behaviors that pull us
away and towards certain behaviors. So, if anybody on the phone has had a
fun-filled experience of trying to lose weight, do you know that there’s little tricks you
do, you know, that you use a smaller plate. And if you use a smaller
plate, you tend to eat less or for anyone who’s had the fun-filled
experience of quitting smoking, you know, one behavior you do that helps you quit smoking
if you stay away from people that are smoking so you can’t [inaudible] their cigarettes. So there’s all kinds of behaviors that either
pull you towards something or pull you away. And the way I see these tension systems
connecting is I think there’s small changes that we can make and that conversations
we have and the services we provide that can help people obtain
the desired behavior they want. So, you know, everybody on this phone,
even if you think none of this is your job, you can make a huge difference in many people’s
lives, just by simply adding a conversation about money to your employment planning. And if somebody doesn’t want to have
that conversation, that’s totally fine. But probably the people that need it
the most will want that conversation. And it will lead to less financial
stress for the individual, OK? It’ll improve the likelihood that the job
seeker is securing employment at a wage that will meet their monthly needs. And for some people that are seeking
employment now, that is an incredible gift. Also, identifying and securing
connections to add to financial services to let people know they’re not alone, but
here, all these resources in the community and there are an awful lot of resources
in every community, is an amazing gift. And increasing the individual’s
understanding of their own needs in a way to meet those needs ’cause I firmly believe
whether you’re talking about employment, or whether you’re talking
about employment and finances. You always want to build on
the individual’s strengths. And one way you build on people’s individual
strengths is them knowing what their needs are. And then thinking about how
they’re going to meet those needs. This isn’t something that you do for somebody. This is really something you do with somebody. And the really fun thing about it is you kind
of expand people’s world and give them hope. So there’s– I think there’s
just three things that you can do that are super easy that’ll make
it easier for your job seekers to maintain employment by
decreasing financial stress. And put somebody on a pathway
to financial stability. Make room for the conversations. Keep things as simple as possible. And really start thinking in your
head, this is part of my role. This isn’t really going to take any more time
and this really is going to help this person. And if you can do those three things,
I think that is just wonderful. We’re on slide 30. So when do you introduce the concept
that employment should place a job seeker on a pathway to financial stability? And as we all know with anything,
timing is everything. And some people are ready to hear things
right at intake, other people aren’t going to be ever ready for it and other people are
going to be interested in thinking about this when you’re writing the employment plan. If you provide the job seekers with tools to evaluate what wages will cover their
expenses, they have control over that. You give them the tool and there’s
lots of online tools and there’s lots of tools they can add to their smartphones. And it seems like everybody in
[inaudible] has a smartphone. That will allow the job seeker
to kind of take control. Because we’ve all worked with people
who will tell us they need to earn such and such a wage, and it’s totally arbitrary. I want to earn 25 dollars an hour. I want to earn 50 dollars an hour. It’s not related to their expenses. It’s not related to their skills,
but it usually is related to status. And in our society, status
is important around money. So people glob on to a high figure that is
impossible to achieve, but having them look at what their expenses are
and where they want to go, then you can help them be a
little bit more realistic. Or sometimes people glob on to a very, very
low figure ’cause they’re trying to stay under the radar either with their– they
may have an overpayment with Social Security and they never want to have another one,
or their wages may be being garnished or they haven’t paid child support so they
just don’t want anybody to be bugging them so they don’t want to earn that much money. But just having somebody have some tools to evaluate it will help them
decide where they want to go. And throughout the job development
process, it is really important to repeat information frequently ’cause people
need to hear information more than once. There isn’t a person on this line that hasn’t–
when they get information that is new to them, that they just get it and life is grand. But you got to hear it more times. I don’t know if anybody here has ever been through benefits planning training
or work incentive t raining. You hear it once and you
think, “Oh, yeah, I got it.” And you walk out and you’ve
totally forgotten it. Because information that’s new to
somebody, it takes a while to sink in, so people frequently need
to hear it more than once. And you really need– when
somebody’s offered a job, I personally feel that it’s our responsibility
to really ask just a couple of questions. Can you live on this wage? If no, they can’t, it’s like OK,
then you really want this job, how are you going to augment
it with public benefits? Do you need to apply for food stamps? Is there any upward growth in the company? So this would be OK for a little while
but then you could have more money? You know, what is your plan
to meet your monthly expenses? And at– when a case is closed or, you
know, what other information do you need? You know, what is your plan
if a financial crisis hits? ‘Cause anyone who’s ever
had a financial crisis knows that if you don’t have a plan before
going into it, it’s terrifying. And also asking people, how are
you managing your financial stress? Is there a plan? Do– Would it be helpful to
take a financial literacy class? OK. I am on slide 31. So let’s talk about money at intake
and when writing an employment plan, because in my head, those
are two natural places. And I think that the more that we can
connect employment and being on a pathway to financial stability, the better off and the
better service we are providing our customers. And asking questions on intake
form or entering into a discussion about individual’s finances is helpful. You may view it as intrusive and a person can
always say, “I don’t want to talk about it.” But for many people, it is helpful. It’s like, finally there’s
somebody that can help me. And I was so ashamed to talk about this. And really, helping people think
about employment is a key factor in financial stability, then
we really need to think about how the employment plan
reflects financial stability. You know, and really have some
conversations with people. And that’s not to say that I am not well
aware of the fact that sometimes people need to accept any job just because
of what’s going on in their life. And that’s a stop-gap measure. You know, if you need to take any job so you can pay rent next month,
that makes perfect sense to me. But we don’t stop there. That’s not an effective plan. We started thinking about, OK, once you’ve
got rent paid, what are the next steps for you to move forward, to be financially stable? So at intake, I think there are some
questions that can easily be asked. And some questions related to desired
salary, how much do you want to make? How much are you making right now? How much have you made in the past? What are your total monthly expenses? Would that wage cover it? Do you want information or support to
better understand or manage your money? Is there any information or
resources I can help you with? Do you have a bank account? Well, no, I haven’t because, you
know, they charge me late fees. They charge me overdraft fees
so much it wasn’t worth it. Well, are you interested in
learning about second chance banking? We already talked about credit
scores and credit report. You know, are there credit
issues you’d like to fix? No. Not right now. I just want a job. OK. Well, is that something you
might want to look at later? Kind of thinking about how much do you owe? Is it weighing on you? Are you worried about it? Do you want any help figuring that out? You know, what are your financial goals? And how can this job help you move forward? These questions do a couple things. One, they can kind of give you– they give information in terms of
how to help somebody move forward. It also helps somebody start thinking
about what steps do I want to take? And I think it’s really helpful to know before
employment planning starts what does financial security look like for the individual? You know, what does financial
independence look like? If I’m somebody who has never ever managed
my money and people have always told me that I can’t manage my money ’cause
I have a cognitive disability, then maybe financial independence
for me looks like the fact that I get to have my own bank account. It’s going to vary. Maybe the financial independence
for somebody else means that they have enough money to buy a house. It’s going to vary depending on that person. But have that person think
about what is financial security and what does financial independence
look like to help them think about how they want to move forward? And we all know this and as you
probably know by this point, I’m great at stating the
obvious, but money is a trigger. Their money is a trigger
for everybody on this line. You know, there’s some people that will be
more than happy if they’re depressed to go– you know, go out shopping and buy something
new and that will make me feel better. Or there’s other people who get a
lot of money and all of a sudden, they want to take all their friends out. We all engage in risky and
impulsive financial behavior. But hopefully, most people on the
line aren’t living on the edge. And if you’re somebody that’s living on
the edge, it’s helpful for you to think about when do you engage in risky
and impulsive financial behavior? Because if you’re the type of person that
as soon as you get money in your pocket, you’re more than happy to give it to your
friends, you’re more than happy to buy everybody in the bar a drink, then
pretty soon you have no money. And there’s a lot of people who go to work
and end up getting in big financial trouble because no one helps them think about,
when do they engage in risky behavior? And if money– if having money means
that they’re going to do something that is more detrimental to themselves, like
particularly if you’ve worked with folks who are recovering addicts, it’s
pretty important that they think about the impact of money on their behavior. And also, connected to the risky, impulsive
behavior is kind of what does status mean? How does money play out status? Because we’ve all worked with people who have
gotten a job and gone out and bought a new car from one of those shady car dealers that
they could not afford at 25 percent interest, but it was status, it was, “I’m
working, I should have a new car.” So, just trying to make people aware
of this so when they go to work, they don’t get themselves in a bigger hole. And what financial goals does the
person have or do they want to have? And for– to think collectively, how can
those financial goals, or some of them, be addressed in the employment plan? OK, I’m on slide 34. So if we move to employment planning, I
think I’ve kind of beaten a dead horse here, but money needs to be a part
of the conversation. And as we develop the plan, as people think
about work, whether it’s individually, whether it’s in a group kind of setting, but not
only is it what type of wage needs to be covered on the monthly expenses,
but really a person thinking about is it reasonable that
I can earn that wage? Do I need to return to school? Do I– you know, what would that
mean for me to have that wage? And to create a plan around that. You know, really have somebody think about
what wage would cover their monthly expenses? And have money left over to
meet their financial goals. Whatever it is, whether it’s to save, whether
it’s to pay down debt, whether it’s to be able to take your girlfriend out to
dinner, whether it’s that, you know, as soon as you get a paycheck, you want to buy
a particular TV, whatever it is, what they are, the person needs to think about that. And also what will your first paycheck pay for? And is that reasonable to assume that
you’d have enough money to pay all that? You know, is there anything the
job seeker wants to save for? And what I really like to do when I’m working
with somebody that wants to save for something, I really like them perhaps ’cause I’m really
visual, I like them to get a picture of it and to cut it out and put it on their
refrigerator so they know, “Hey, this is what I’m saving for,”
’cause it’s tough to save. And for them to think about how much
money is needed for financial stability, what is financial stability for them? And what’s the job seeker
willing to do to achieve that? You know, I work with a woman once where when I
started working with her, she was not working. And she wanted– she enrolled in an IDA
program and at savings account program where the match was one to eight. And she wanted to save for a car
but all she had was her SSI income. So, she went and she cut off her cable because
she could save the money that she paid in cable. And in her thinking, I will be
financially stable if I have a car so that I can obtain employment because
where she lived was fairly rural. And she ended up purchasing a
car, and she ended up going– actually getting a job that paid fairly well. So, it’s like what’s a person
willing to do to achieve that? Kind of when was the last time the
job seeker checked his credit report? I really like to recommend people check their
credit report prior to applying for jobs just so they can correct misinformation on it. And are there any financial issues that
will impact the job seeker working? We talked a little bit about this
earlier, whether it’s overpayment, delinquent child support, garnishment, but
those are things that they may want to think about in how they want to address them. On all of this, I would suggest for what its
worth to ask the person to write down, you know, their biggest financial issues they want
to address, to ask the person to think about how the employment plan can help
address one or more of those issues. And have the person create a personal action
plan for what they’re willing to do today, 30 days, two months, three months from now. And have the person mail it to them
because I think it is essential that it’s the person’s plan and not our plan. So, if by mailing it to themselves, that helps. I’m going to stop for a second
’cause I just saw a question. [ Pause ] OK, in my area, it’s almost impossible to get
a checking account if you have poor credit. Is there a way around the situation
with second chance banking? Yes, there is. And if you can type in your
area, then we can get back to you on who has second chance banking in your area. So, we’re going to talk about money
throughout the job development process. And one thing that I think that we forget
to talk about a lot is employer benefits. And it’s weird to me ’cause
we forget to talk about it. And I think this goes back to, you
know, our thinking of, you know, our role is to get you a job, and life is good. But for most people on this phone, we all think
about employer benefits when we accept a job. We may accept a job for less pay
because it has better benefits. But lots of times, we forget to talk to some
of our consumers about employer benefits. And so, does the job have a pension plan? If it does, how much does
the company contribute? Is there life insurance? Does the employer contribute? Does it come directly out of your paycheck? ‘Cause it kind of– knowing what comes directly
out of your paycheck is very helpful when, you know, kind of reminds me of when my–
one of my children got their first job, they called me up at their first
paycheck and said, “I’m quitting. Don’t they know I’m a teenager? They took taxes out of my check. You work on this, mom, you call them up and tell
them they can’t take taxes out of my check.” They had no idea. And sometimes, that’s true with
some of the employer benefits. The employee, the person we
represent doesn’t realize that. So, we need to have conversations. We need to find out are paychecks direct
deposit, particularly if you’re working with somebody who lives in
an area that is dangerous. But direct deposit is good for everybody even
if they’re in a totally safe neighborhood. You know, is there a provision
for direct deposit into savings? Because everybody knows that if they save–
if they have direct deposit into savings, it’s a heck of a lot easier to save
than it is when you actually have to put it into the savings account. Does it have disability coverage? Does the company offer short-term
or long-term disability coverage? Most of these benefits you can
find on employer’s websites. Or in an interview, you can ask an employer
because people do all the time, what are you– you know, what are your employer benefits? If there’s an education benefit, is
that available just to the person? Or is it also available to the family members? Because all of these benefits can
augment a wage and you may choose to take a job that’s less pay– that
pays less because it’s better benefits. And does the employer pay for
health insurance coverage? If not, how much will it be– you know,
how much would it be on a monthly basis? Is the premium deducted from
the individual’s paycheck? How much is deducted? Can a summary of a health insurance
plan options be reviewed before hiring? These are really important questions for
somebody accepting a job to be thinking about. There isn’t anybody on the line that
would not think about this for themselves. I’d– you know, I’ve never gone into
a job interview where I haven’t asked, when does your health insurance coverage start. Now, how much sick time, vacation
time, holidays are provided? Can sick time be used when my kid is sick? Because if it can’t and I have three kids, I’m going to kind of think the
way the pros and cons of this job. You know, when do benefits start to accrue? I think it’s really important we help
people think through employer benefits. You know, what other fringe
benefits are offered? Are there stock options? Particularly when you work– if you’re working
with people who are also on Social Security, whether it be SSI or SSDI, making sure that
they understand, you know, mutual funds, stock options, the impacts that
can have on their benefits. Well, if they don’t even know those
are offered, it’s pretty hard for them to know the impact it can
have on their benefits. You know, are there bonuses? Are there raises? You know, a raise of six months,
do I get a raise when I’m done with probation and then every year, henceforth? You know, is there in-house training? Is there wellness? Is there shared compensation? Childcare assistance? Policy to promote from within? Not every employer is going
to have all of these benefits. But if you’re aware of what
benefits you need and, you know, if you don’t have any kids,
you don’t care about childcare. If you’re pretty healthy, you probably
don’t care about shared compensation. But you may really care, do
they promote from within? So, just making people aware of what
the different employer benefits are so they can start thinking about what they need. And remember, this all goes back
to how do I help you take control? And the more information a person
has, the better control they can take. Another really– particularly in today’s world,
another important thing for people to think about is how does the employer pay? Do they– you know, are there payroll cards
accounts that are established by the employer to transfer the employer’s compensation? Well if they are, does the payroll– can some of the new payroll accounts also
have savings account connected to it. So, if I’m somebody who decide I need to
start saving and they pay by payroll account, I’m going to kind of want to
know for the payroll account that also has savings connected to it. The thing that an employee needs to
know or a job seeker needs to know, if there’s a payroll card account, the
employee is allowed to choose the institution that will receive the direct deposit. The employer cannot require the
employee to receive their wages to a payroll account at certain institutions. The employee gets to choose. And the employer can offer
choices of payroll cards. They can offer direct deposits into the account of the employee choosing
or– I’m sorry, or checks. So, this is a new occurrence. You know, I think it’s been
like in the last five years that payroll cards have become really
popular and some people don’t know about it. So, making sure they’re aware of that. And I think that another issue that we kind of
missed talking to people about which is kind of weird, but we do or I have
anyhow, is payroll taxes. You know, a person needs to
know about payroll taxes. They need to know there’s a difference for some
people they need to know there’s a difference between your gross income before
taxes and your net income. And the amount of money a
person gets after taxes. And they need to know, it depends on the
deductions that they take in their W-4. So, if I need a lot of money right now, then
I’m going to probably take less deductions so I get more money and maybe later on I’m
going to change the deductions on my W-4. Or maybe I’m somebody that wants to
get a ton of money back at tax time so then I can put a chunk
of change into savings. Then, I’m going to do more deductions, but
just helping somebody think that through. To understand that there’s employee, their
employer benefits deductions that come out of your check, there’s Social Security
taxes which is basically 6.2 percent, and there’s a Medicare deduction
at 1.45 percent. You know, and there can be other deductions
that are going to impact your take-home pay, which is insurance premiums, retirement
payments, flexible health accounts, et cetera. So, having somebody kind of
understand that for people who have not paid attention to it is useful. So, let’s talk about money at closure. And I’m on slide 45. Basically, everything that I said thus far is–
kind of means that we’re going to have to think about who in the community we can partner
with, they can offer the information we need. So, that you can make sure that your job seeker
gets the information they need, you know, whether it’s on credit repair, dealing with
debt, budgeting, work incentives, you know, one big one is reporting Social Security earned
income, so people don’t get into overpayments. Who has financial education classes? Who has banking products such
as second chance banking? Who has low interest loans
or credit building loans? So, I have really stinky credit. Well, maybe what I need is a low
interest loan that builds my credit. But– so, maybe I need to go see
somebody around credit repair who can help me think that through. So, being aware of what’s available
in your community is really useful. I think it’s also really
important to keep stuff simple, keep the focus on what the job seeker
identifies as their financial goals and what he or she wants to know. For anyone on the line, that’s
a benefits planner or for anyone on the line who’s ever sent somebody
to a CWIC or a benefits planner, you know or at least I knew as a benefits
planner, I gave people way too much information and their heads were spinning, and it
wasn’t really the information they wanted. And it wasn’t until I ask that very simple
question, what do you need to know today? And could address that, that
then all of a sudden, people started following what I was suggesting. So also, if we can make it easy
for people to be successful. So, if we help them think about shorter goals,
and always, always with anything, I mean, everybody knows this, we’re going to start
with the job seeker’s strengths and build on those strengths, because every
person we see has strengths in this area that sometimes you have to dig a little deeper, but those strengths are there
and we need to build on them. And we want to make information
easy, accessible, and understandable. That’s why we want to test something
to say, somebody doesn’t make– does something doesn’t make sense
to them, then we want to figure out how we can re-say it again
so that it’s clearer to people. Most of us only understand
what we need to know to get by. I mean, if the financial crisis in 2008
taught us anything, it taught us that. And people might not understand the financial
system, but they do understand what they want. And so, if we structure a conversation
about what a person wants for the future, they don’t necessarily have to
understand all the ins and outs of money. But it still needs to be part of their
conversation ’cause we need to make sure that jobs are helping people get, fit
with what that person wants and needs, or at least they’re on a pathway to that. You know, I think that one thing we’re
getting smarter at is using technology. And I personally think we should
use technology whenever possible. When we can label things with a picture with
a smartphone to make it easier for somebody, can we do alerts, can we help somebody
set up alerts on their smartphones, reminders, notifications of low balances. There are tons of free financial apps that
are like for budgeting, for credit tracking, money tips, can we help people
download those to their smartphones? Can we text tips to people? Can we make sure that our [inaudible]
try to put on our website useful– you know, useful websites for job seekers? So to really start using
technology to its fullest advantage. OK so, we– I think I’ve hammered it home
enough and a job alone is not enough. We want people to be financially stable. So, we want to assist job
seekers in thinking about a career that both meets their unique abilities and
put them on a pathway to financial stability. We want to ask job seekers to think about
what financial stability means for them and how much money they need
now and in the future. And what they’re willing to do to achieve that. And of course, we want to provide information
on how to use public benefits as a tool and help people think through what are the
essential public benefits they need as opposed to having people think, don’t touch
my benefits or life will fall apart. And we want to provide resource information
on financial literacy and community resources. If we remember that improving your customer’s
financial capability will decrease their financial stress and a major
cause of on-the-job issues, then they’re probably going to stay employed. The integrated financial stability–
integrating financial stability into disability and employment services is really critical
if we want people to be financially stable. If we have folks who have more
complexities in their life, it is critical that we help them start thinking
about, how do we integrate financial stability? And, you know, there are portion of job seekers,
many of whom a lot of you on the phone represent who will never be financially
stable without these conversations and without the community supports. And they will kind of be through
a revolving door where you get to see them more than you ever wanted to. So, I’m going to try to wrap this up
quickly so we have time for questions. But I want to give you an on-the-ground
example of Terrence and he came in to your organization for employment services. You know, he needed a job, just any job. “I need a job tomorrow.” And through the intake employment process, all of a sudden you learn there’re some
financial issues and some support he desires. So, his case manager, job counselor refers
him to a free financial education class to be completed when he is seeking employment. So, he gets that under his belt. Prior to accepting a position, his job
counselor helped him create a financial plan that identifies how much he needs to earn, what
employer benefits he needs, what he can change in his budget if he accepts
a job for less money, how to use these public benefits
to augment his wages? Where to obtain free tax filing services? Which tax credits he might
be able to be eligible for? And opportunities to use this tax credit,
his tax returns to meet one of his goals? So, the outcome for this is other than
the fact that he lives happily ever after, he understands his financial
needs, which is critical. He identifies financial goals. That is really powerful. He has a financial plan. So, thinks he knows what to do. He’s not going to get sideswiped
by those financial crises. He improves his money management skills
and feels more in control of his money. He has a job that covers his expenses and
he knows the supports in the community and where to turn for the supports. And best of all, he believes he can
improve his financial situation. So that’s where we want to get. And in slide 53, you know, it starts
with belief is critical, and it is. Nobody, nobody in the world gets to
be part of the financial mainstream without somebody believing they can do it. Everybody on the phone that was true for. And all– really, this whole
presentation is about is we want to give that gift back to the people we represent. You know, you might be the
first person in a long time that believes a job seeker
can be financially better off. And that encouragement is
so incredibly powerful. It also creates relationships that
allow for tough conversations. It allows for, OK, well, you know,
it doesn’t quite make sense to me. Can we think that through again? So, the belief that a person can and should
be better off is just super powerful. Slide 54. And so, your homework assignment,
should you choose to accept them? No, it’s like what you can do tomorrow. You and your head tomorrow can
redefine successful employment. You can consider enhanced employment services
that support a job seeker to earn wages that meet their monthly expenses,
report earned income to Social Security, and with
supports if necessary. File taxes, I cannot tell you
how many people didn’t believe that while filing taxes doesn’t apply to them
because they didn’t make that much money. And they’re just throwing that money away. You know, apply for earned income tax
credit and with supports if they need it. Have a bank account. Connect to the supports in the community that
assist with budgeting and financial education. If we redefine– if in your head you start
thinking, “Hey, at least one of these things, I’m going to incorporate with the folks
I work with,” that would be wonderful. What you can do in the next month
is there’s all kinds of really easy, good online financial education
classes, which are listed here. So, you can introduce just a few financial
questions into your job counseling. You can learn the community resources. You can create a hand sheet–
a handout sheet that kind of helps people understand employer benefits. And you can become familiar with a Social
Security work incentive fun-filled red book which actually is very good. So, these are all relatively
easy things that you could do in the next month to start thinking about this. And your leadership, your leadership
can do some stuff if they so choose. And they could be willing to try
different and untested strategies. You know, they could create a workgroup willing to explore what would be
possible in the next year. You could arrange training for all staff on
financial strategies and why this is important. You could pilot how to incorporate
financial health into employment planning. You should think about creating savings
incentives when somebody goes to work. Work with businesses to develop a joint strategy
’cause remember, this is everybody’s issue. You could incorporate financial
expectations and desires as part of discovery and customized employment. And I just want to go over real quickly
some other resources to consider. There’s a great free financial health assessment to assess a client’s financial
needs and the website is there. There is a link to living wage calculator. You could put that on your website. You know, so many people go to work and then
they don’t understand why they’re so poor. And the fact is because these other
issues haven’t been dealt with. Yeah, you could get a list of resources of the
banks that offer second chance banking accounts who provides match savings accounts or
Individual Development Accounts in your area. And also which we don’t have and
I’m hoping Elizabeth can help me. There are also two webinars that
I was hoping that we would– oh, thank you, Elizabeth with the– oh no. NDI is having a webinar, I believe it’s
on April 9th which is building capacity–>>Yeah. If you could give me the ball or–>>Yeah. OK, great.>>– keep going through, they
will be in a few more slides.>>Oh, OK, it’s yours.>>Sorry about that, everyone.>>That’s OK. OK, so, yeah. Do you want to talk about them, Elizabeth? And I will turn it back to you.>>Sure. Thanks, Abby.>>Yeah.>>First of all, Abby, thank you
so much for your presentation. I learned a lot. I think you did a great job breaking
this down for all of us on the line. So, for those of you who
might want to learn more, there’s two upcoming opportunities to do that. One, is through National
Disability Institute on April 9th. We’re going to provide a webinar on
Measuring the Financial Capability of Persons with Disabilities. We’re going to do this with our partner, Bank
of America and a panel of speakers who are going to define for you financial capability as
it relates to individuals with disabilities and look at the fact that while
there are currently some standards for measuring financial capability,
they don’t take into account some of the additional indicators
that would be relevant when you’re looking at somebody
who has disability. So, we hope you’ll join us. You can access it through the link. Nakia, if you wouldn’t mind
putting the link in the chat box or you can also visit our website,
www.realeconomicimpact.org. There’s also going to be a
webinar hosted by Workforce3One for the Disability Employment Initiative which
is a product of National Disability Institute and our sister agency, NDI Consulting. So, this webinar is on April 8th and it’s
going to look at the Role “Credit” plays in the Employment with People with Disabilities. As Abby alluded to, there are significant
efforts going on around the country and even in Congress to look at this issue of
credit being an indicator of whether or not you are job worthy and that’s starting
to become a real barrier to individuals who are interested in employment. So if you have a chance to join, you
can register through Workforce3One. Don’t be intimidated by Workforce3One. You do have to register to be a user,
but it’s free and it’s a great resource and it’s what the federal workforce system
uses to put out information in webinars. And then I also want to make
sure you’re thoughtful about our next upcoming webinar
from LEAD Center. April 23rd, we’re going to
switch to our employment series which is going to run for three months. The first one will be on Section 503,
Connecting Job seekers with Disabilities and Federal Contractors through
the Workforce Development System. So, many of you may know there’s a new Section
503 rule that’s become final and is in effect and it looks at making sure that
individuals with disabilities are part of federal contractors workforce. So, this will be a great opportunity for you
to look at how you can be part of that process of connecting job seekers with
disabilities to those federal contractors. So, we hope you’ll join us,
a lot is going on in April. But let’s come back to some questions for Abby. I’m hoping everyone can hear me OK. Abby provided a lot of information and we
hope that you’ll take a minute now to plug in to the question and answer box or into the
chat box any of the questions that you have. One that came up is for you, Abby, and asks are
there– in addition to the links you provided, are there any other kind of favorite
websites or links that you go to for financial capability
strategies and tools?>>Yeah. There’s a lot of links. And maybe what we should do is create a list
of links and then put them on your website. You know, one link that I really
like is not so much on strategies as it is just tells you the
state of the state of your state, which if there’s good information
on CFED’s website. So, would that work, if I sent you
Elizabeth, a variety of websites and you could also augment it and then
we could send it out to folks or post it?>>Absolutely. We could do that. So, also any of you out there on the line,
if you have a favorite website that you use for some of these issues, I want
to encourage you to send it to us. You can plug it into the chat
box or send it directly to me, Elizabeth Jennings, [email protected] We’ll compile those and we’ll post them with
the archive so that folks can look at them. And we’ll do our best to vet all of them to
make sure that they’re accessible to you–>>Yeah, just so and a little wary to just–>>No problem. We can take care of that–>>Yeah.>>– through the LEAD Center. You know, another opportunity for all of you on
the line today is if you have some of the tools that Abby mentioned creating, something on how
to talk to people about the different things that are going to be deducted from their
paycheck or some links that you like to use to help people have some basic understanding
of their money as they return to work, we’d be happy to also share those
out to the folks on this webinar. So, please feel free to share
any resources such as that. We’ll always be happy to make sure they
are posted with the relevant training and be a resource to all of your
colleagues across the country. So, another question we have
is, I’m not sure how to get my leadership engaged
in these activities. Do you have any suggestions for a first step?>>I have lots of suggestions. I don’t know if they are
effective but, you know, one suggestion that I would suggest
is just presenting to your leadership. I don’t know what state you’re from, but I would
go to the CFED site and look at information about your state and poverty
level in your state. And then look and just present in terms
of the impact of who you’re serving, and the impact it’s having
and then have a discussion. And, you know, my email is up here. And if you want to go that route
and you want to send me your ideas, I’m happy to send you back some suggestions
and kind of work a little bit with you on it.>>Great. Thank you. OK, it looks like that’s all of
the questions that we’ve had. The only other question we’ve been asked
is questions about the archive and whether or not you can print this information out after. And yes, the archive will be posted. It will be posted with the
transcript and also with the slides. So, you’ll have everything there that you need. If you’re somebody who thinks that others in
your organization would benefit, you know, this archive would be a great resource for them. Abby really drives home the point
and gives a great world view of why this is so critically important. And some of the research that shows that
incorporating this into your work can lead to better outcomes, particularly
in regards to employment retention.>>And Nina, who needed information on second
chance banking, if you email me your email, then I will send you that information.>>Great. Thank you, Abby.>>Sure.>>So on that note, I’d like
to say thank you again to Abby. We really appreciate your
time and your expertise today.>>Oh, sure. Well, thank you. Thank you everybody for listening.>>Thanks everyone for joining us. We hope you’ll join us again next month. And we hope you’ll take the opportunity to
always email us in with any questions you have, any tools you use that you’d like us to share
and any thoughts you have about future trainings that you’d like us to create for you. We so appreciate your attendance and we
look forward to seeing you again next month. Thanks, everyone. Have a great day.>>Thank you. Bye-bye.